tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8785859730868628316.post3730740673321288990..comments2024-02-10T01:22:29.316-08:00Comments on Hugo Stiglitz Makes Movies: Antichrist: Dragging me to HellKevin J. Olsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17275402809912728035noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8785859730868628316.post-38232650873633283632009-11-26T21:55:00.369-08:002009-11-26T21:55:00.369-08:00Jake:
Come back and let me know what you thought ...Jake:<br /><br />Come back and let me know what you thought of the film. I'm with ya all the way on <i>Dancer in the Dark</i>.Kevin J. Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17275402809912728035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8785859730868628316.post-10101092248577773772009-11-26T17:37:52.549-08:002009-11-26T17:37:52.549-08:00I have not seen Antichrist yet though I must admit...I have not seen Antichrist yet though I must admit it's very much piqued my interest. I've still not gotten over Dancer in the Dark though, a film whose director inexplicably pitted himself against his own story, crafting a tortured, affecting portrait of a kind but naive woman and then stomping on her as if she were the most evil creature who ever lived. I very much enjoyed Breaking the Waves, but Dancer turned me off Von Trier just as quickly as I became a fan.<br /><br />I still intend to see this, though.Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09078001374402400232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8785859730868628316.post-61783487098483471302009-11-05T12:06:45.459-08:002009-11-05T12:06:45.459-08:00That's my main gripe, too. I've just neve...That's my main gripe, too. I've just never been able to get into one of his movies...although I can see why he's somewhat of a sacred cow.Kevin J. Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17275402809912728035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8785859730868628316.post-29650432870673663492009-11-05T11:50:25.164-08:002009-11-05T11:50:25.164-08:00Wait, so Trier dedicated Antichrist to Tarkovsky? ...Wait, so Trier dedicated Antichrist to Tarkovsky? I wasnt aware of that, but I guess it shows, they are both on the same level I guess. <br /><br />Or at least Trier wants to be on the same level of Tarkovsky.<br /><br />Watching a Tarkovsky film is a task, its very difficult to get through them on one sitting alone...Im not the biggest fan either, but I do enjoy trying to figure what his trying to say, however difficult it may be to watch his films. <br /><br />My main gripe with Tarkovsky is pacing.Franco Macabrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10994905312221715861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8785859730868628316.post-61814100406116684372009-11-04T11:41:45.150-08:002009-11-04T11:41:45.150-08:00Jamie:
To each his own, indeed! Hehe. I know a ...Jamie:<br /><br />To each his own, indeed! Hehe. I know a lot of people who I admire deeply love von Trier's work...he's just never done it for me. Something isn't clicking for me when I sit down to watch one of his movies. However, I'm always willing to give him a shot (although whether my preconceived dislike of him trickles into my "fresh" viewing experience of one of his films is up for debate), and I often find myself looking forward, in a kind of perverse way, to whatever he brings to the table...because I know it's sure to be "out there". <br /><br />I haven't seen von Trier's earlier work...I started at <i>Breaking the Waves</i> and have moved chronologically through his films from there. Based on Sam's love of the man and your recommendation for <i>Europa</i>/<i>Zentropa</i> (which I've always heard are quite good...I just haven't gotten around to watching them) I will have to check out his earlier work.<br /><br />I think we can all think of a director or two that just doesn't seem compatible with us, and for me it's von Trier. Do you have a link to your review? I'd love to post it on here along with Sam's and then contrasts that with some links from people who didn't like the movie.<br /><br />That goes for others (if you're still reading this thread)...send me your links to your <i>Antichrist</i> reviews and I will set up some links showcasing the varying opinions on this film.<br /><br />Thanks, as always, for commenting, Jaime. Always great to have you around here.Kevin J. Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17275402809912728035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8785859730868628316.post-49567167135848511132009-11-04T11:28:56.594-08:002009-11-04T11:28:56.594-08:00Keven, finally something we disagree on. I've ...Keven, finally something we disagree on. I've stated elsewhere that I think this is the film of the year thus far, and that Von Trier may be--if push came to shove--my favorite director working today. I adore his work. <br /><br />So you don't like some of his more Dogme-95ish stuff. I wonder what your take is on his 'straighter' stuff (at least cinema-wise). 'The Element of Crime' and (specifically) 'Europa/Zentropa' I'm not sure how ANY film fan can not like that one. I actually count 'Europa/Zentropa' to be in my 20 or so favorite films of all time, I think it's that mesmerizing. 'Dogville' is also a pretty monumental achievement. <br /><br />To each his own. I will say 'Antichrist' to me shares most in common with Polanski's 'Repulsion'.Jamienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8785859730868628316.post-16240984146589374172009-11-04T09:45:25.429-08:002009-11-04T09:45:25.429-08:00Sam:
Sorry, I forgot one last thing:
The perfor...Sam:<br /><br />Sorry, I forgot one last thing: <br /><br />The performances here are good...you're right that Gainsbourg gives it her all, but for me that's always been the norm with a von Trier film; whether it be Emily Watson, Bjork, Nicole Kidman...it doesn't seem to matter what film he's making, von Trier is always (in my opinion) getting bailed out by his actresses. I've always stood by the opinion that <i>Breaking the Waves</i> is better than it has any right to be because of Emily Watson's performance. <br /><br />I think that may be the only von Trier I've tolerated, and I think it's one of those rare films (like <i>Million Dollar Baby</i> to name a recent one) that succeeds in spite of the stories failures. I rarely rank movies in a top ten based just on performances, but I would with <i>Breaking the Waves</i> (and I did last year with <i>Frozen River</i>). I can say what I want about von Trier, but he can elicit great performances from his female actors...which just seems odd to me because he's always putting them through so much shit.Kevin J. Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17275402809912728035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8785859730868628316.post-58475499567725907012009-11-04T09:40:38.897-08:002009-11-04T09:40:38.897-08:00Film Connoisseur:
In Tim Brayton's review tha...Film Connoisseur:<br /><br />In Tim Brayton's review that I link to he actually rails against von Trier for putting him into even more of a bad mood by dedicating the film to Tarkovsky...stating: <br /><br /><i>[Tarkovsky] could have outdone von Trier's freshman-level religious symbolism blindfolded with both of his hands cut off.</i><br /><br />I'm not a huge Tarkovsky fan...but I have to agree with Tim on this one. But that does seem like what von Trier was going for here. More maybe something even extreme and surreal like <i>Salo</i>, another film I've never quite understood (except for its cult status as being an arty exploitation movie).<br /><br />I look forward to your thoughts on the movie. Thanks for stopping by.Kevin J. Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17275402809912728035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8785859730868628316.post-56504572567200100232009-11-04T09:35:07.578-08:002009-11-04T09:35:07.578-08:00Tony and Sam:
Yes...I am pretty damn harsh (maybe...Tony and Sam:<br /><br />Yes...I am pretty damn harsh (maybe brutal is a more appropriate word) on this movie, but that's only because von Trier was pretty damn harsh with me. I didn't feel like his big grandiose themes were being backed up by what I was seeing on screen, so I let him have it in the review. I'm with Tony, though, I think there is a least something to recommend in this film (the opening), but using Tony's scale of stating this more easily I would give the film a 1.5 out 5.Kevin J. Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17275402809912728035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8785859730868628316.post-87460241030676882212009-11-04T09:30:48.887-08:002009-11-04T09:30:48.887-08:00Sam:
I was hoping you would stop and leave your t...Sam:<br /><br />I was hoping you would stop and leave your thoughts. I thought about your take on the film and your love for von Trier as I was writing this, so I'm glad you chimed in. I think it is a matter of taste, and no matter how hard I try I just cannot get into von Trier...but at least I'm giving his films a shot right?<br /><br />I stated this in the TOERIFC a few months back when we discussed <i>Dancer in the Dark</i>: you may not like von Trier (which I certainly don't), but it's damn hard to ignore him. Some of his stuff to me just seems so extreme that soils his own intent...again, had <i>Antichrist</i> been a straight horror movie, or a dark comedy I may have been along for the ride, but the usual von Trier misanthropy kept me from investing anything emotional into the film.<br /><br />There's no doubt that the opening of the film is the finest thing von Trier has ever filmed. It's also the most heavy handed and MELOdramatic...I mean it's more over-the-top in the melodrama department than all of <i>Dancer in the Dark</i>...but it kind of works, and the black and white is beautiful (as is the opera piece that accompanies it).<br /><br />So, I know we'll just have to disagree on this one, Sam. Hehe. I look forward to reading your defense, of course.Kevin J. Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17275402809912728035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8785859730868628316.post-31990507607354567802009-11-04T07:47:24.771-08:002009-11-04T07:47:24.771-08:00Fair enough Tony and thanks very much for the kind...Fair enough Tony and thanks very much for the kinds words of expectation for my weekend review of the film that is forthcoming. However, I do believe that the critical concensus has proven that the film has polarized critics, even those like yourself who have found much to praise in Von Trier's prior work. What it all comes down to is how willing one is to allow this startling and ultra-disturbing material stand as some kind of artistic statement. i was revulsed like never before in my cinematic life, but I was nonetheless stunned and convinced that thematically this was a work of art in the best sense. In fact at this point, I'd rank it maybe #2 of 2009 behind only Jane Campion's BRIGHT STAR. But I aim to see it a second time.<br /><br />Glad to read what The Film Connoisseur says there.Sam Julianonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8785859730868628316.post-79532906425560093392009-11-04T05:52:45.641-08:002009-11-04T05:52:45.641-08:00I disagree. I think the MSM has done more to perpe...I disagree. I think the MSM has done more to perpetuate the myth that this film is polarizing than any film writers I truly respect.<br /><br />I think that most of these writers find the film just "kinda good" or "kinda bad." In many ways, that mediocrity is much more of an indictment of von Trier, than polarization would be.Tony Dayoubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04632329277519635858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8785859730868628316.post-12590105176097405602009-11-04T05:24:54.725-08:002009-11-04T05:24:54.725-08:00I enjoyed Dancer in the Dark, thought it was a fan...I enjoyed Dancer in the Dark, thought it was a fantastic film and a great achievement, that whole thing with putting a gazillion cameras all over the place was awesome. And Bjorks performance blew me away. <br /><br />I enjoy films that are symbolic in nature, love figuring out what a director is trying to say with the images. Its a kind of movie I enjoy watching because its as if the movie was talking, but without words, its just the visuals that do it. Kind of like watching a film by Andrei Tarkovsky. <br /><br />I havent seen Antichrist, but Im looking forward to it. I know its gonna be one of these ultra artsy fartsy movies. Ive heard both praises and hateful reviews for it, so I guess its one of those films that polarizes the audience, youll either really love it, or youll really hate it.Franco Macabrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10994905312221715861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8785859730868628316.post-91592467689149645142009-11-04T05:12:11.020-08:002009-11-04T05:12:11.020-08:00Sam, I look forward to your, no doubt, insightful ...Sam, I look forward to your, no doubt, insightful defense of the film. Just to clarify, I actually tend to favor von Trier (<i>Dogville</i> is one of my favorites of the decade), but I think he just went for easy shocks here, instead of taking on one of his, usually self-imposed, artistic challenges. I still find a lot to recommend in this film. I don't despise it. But if I had to put it in easier terms to quantify, I'd give it a 2 out of 5.Tony Dayoubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04632329277519635858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8785859730868628316.post-81369731468822026332009-11-04T04:50:16.431-08:002009-11-04T04:50:16.431-08:00"Watching a von Trier film is about one of th..."Watching a von Trier film is about one of the worst experiences I can think of because there’s never enough on the screen to keep me interested in plodding stories that aesthetically contain nothing visceral."<br /><br />Kevin, this admission pretty much states your position in regards to the filmmaker, but it's fair enough. I love Von trier, but much of this is taste. i have never been so pompous as to pose that not liking him is not getting him. But I will admit few filmmakers have been this extreme in showcasing human depravity to make their point. <br /><br />As far as Ms. Gainsbourg, her Cannes Festival winning turn was gutsy and downright brilliant. Even opponents of the filmseem to have acknowledged this.Sam Julianonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8785859730868628316.post-59723657442762792722009-11-04T04:41:02.851-08:002009-11-04T04:41:02.851-08:00Kevin, as always I respect your opinion immensely,...Kevin, as always I respect your opinion immensely, and I furthermore know you have never been a Von Trier fan. Your position here is definitely with the negative side of the sharply divided concensus, but unlike Tony Dayoub and yourself I do not find the film either immature or symbolically heavy-handed. (Tony, the Ebert review your refer to is probably the most favorable review the film has received) I saw this film at the most down moment of my life, but I tried to set that fact apart, and it's true I am a huge Von Trier fan with both DOGVILLE and DANCER IN THE DARK placing #1 in their respective years, and BREAKING THE WAVGES and MANDERLAY making my top ten of their own years. The epilogue with the Handel composition was sublimely beautiful, and Von Trier's thematic presentation is nothing short of brilliant. I can see why you and others would be repulsed and revolted by the film, and as I said earlier I understand it. You are rarely someone who I would say is unfair and dismissive. I will pen my own defense of the film over the weekend, but believe me I know for many Von Trier may have crossed the line here. Your review is frank and uncompromnising, not to mention typically perceptive from where you are coming from, so I can't ask for more than that.Sam Julianonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8785859730868628316.post-16952789330213178512009-11-03T18:28:02.514-08:002009-11-03T18:28:02.514-08:00Tony:
We certainly are on the same page. I remem...Tony:<br /><br />We certainly are on the same page. I remember your review and thought about it while I was constructing mine. I think Ebert's thoughts are interesting, but like you, I just don't see it. It's so hard for me to get to that place with von Trier because I feel like he is being repugnant on purpose -- keeping me at arm’s length is what he wants because he knows that if people are to really look deeply at his films they'll find the flimsiest of ideas.<br /><br />You're right...these alternate takes are interesting to read, but like you, I call bullshit.<br /><br />Ugh, I honestly felt like I needed a shower after watching this movie.Kevin J. Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17275402809912728035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8785859730868628316.post-22213514960798115912009-11-03T18:24:43.128-08:002009-11-03T18:24:43.128-08:00Dr. Walpurgis:
I was unaware that this was a rema...Dr. Walpurgis:<br /><br />I was unaware that this was a remake. Thanks for the info.Kevin J. Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17275402809912728035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8785859730868628316.post-36829822256955244022009-11-03T15:11:27.173-08:002009-11-03T15:11:27.173-08:00I'm gratified that you and I are on the same w...I'm gratified that you and I are on the same wavelength about this film. Visually arresting? Yes. But extremely immature.<br /><br />The most interesting reading of the film I've yet seen is Roger Ebert's. Ebert posits that the film takes place in an anti-universe (because Antichrist cannot coexist with Christ... the same way antimatter cannot coexist with matter [alright, it's a little hokey]), where Nature was created by Satan. Therefore reason (represented by Dafoe's He) is the enemy. And that makes She the heroine in the film.<br /><br />Except upon closer scrutiny, it all falls apart. Wouldn't that mean that Nature, as the antithesis of Reason, would be good? And doesn't that contradict the film's assertion that Nature (as it exists in the film) is inherently evil?<br /><br />Interesting reading by Ebert, but frankly, I didn't see it on the screen, so I call BULLSHIT!Tony Dayoubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04632329277519635858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8785859730868628316.post-41309134001001282612009-11-03T14:05:49.973-08:002009-11-03T14:05:49.973-08:00I'd rather be watching the original Antichrist...I'd rather be watching the original Antichrist (L'ANTICRISTO, d. Alberto de Martino, 1974) than this one. As piss-poor remakes go, it's down there with CASINO ROYALE.Dr Walpurgishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08145120805061151865noreply@blogger.com